Not a fan. I totally understand the need for climate protests, we're way too slow. And I also het that you're not gonna get headlines with a small protest somewhere. But why not disrupt things that are actually polluting, instead of throwing soup or paint at works of art. You'll also make enemies by blocking a major road or something, but at least it makes some sense.
Oh no! The history that we could have all have enjoyed in the future (if we weren't all about to die due to environmental collapse) has been slightly marred!
I'm all for peaceful environmental protesting, but destruction of property and historic monuments/items only makes your movement look worse. News will spin it as the protesters being vandals and go about their day. Most people won't think beyond that and will probably associate environmental activism with negative things such as vandalism or whatever else their favorite news calls what they're doing.
There's no need for the media to spin anything, the protestors committed vandalism and, unless they are protesting the existence of prehistoric monuments, they did a really shitty job of even calling attention to their cause.
It's a realy interesting tightrope. If you just stand in a field holdong signs your don't really get media attention. in order to get that attention you must do something that grinds peoples' gears enough to have media outlets pay attention to them. But that kind of action needs to skirt the vandalism vector, as otherwise people would be like 'they removed the unimportant turnip of Weddelsex, but I dont care' on the other hand You also cannot be too radical, as it will hurt your cause.
It would be great if enviromentalists had a voice that could be audible over the control over media that is enacted by big companies (murdoch f.i.), but theres little big money in the message of climate awareness, and it's a message most people dont't reallt want to hear.
So... You take aim at objects that are deemed worthwhile and important for the people you wish to reach and try to allign your message with the importance of those ancient and important works.
It's a losing battle as people choose comfort over complicated issues (seemingly) out of their control as annoyance, furthermore being made co-defendant in the case of climate destruction is rather jarring, therefore people are shy to pick up on them, as why should the burden be on them?
So theres no way to positively make your message. Therefore any demonstration is jarring per se, even if peaceful it needs to be at least known, and ironicaaly the best way to do that is to do something outrageaus, as our reptile brain goes very hard on that.
Rebecca Watson has an interesting video on this. The way things are going right now, people in 50 years will look back and say activists were the only people trying something, while most of us just waited for the shit to hit the fan.
People will use this to galvanize efforts against climate action, and it will work. If you want to seriously do something, go after the people causing the crisis.
It will inspire people to take more drastic action, and highlight the urgency of the cause in a way that targets those who are causing it. It's also more likely to create sympathy, since the ones causing the problem are the ones being punished for it.
Policy is what drives the climate crisis, and policy is primarily controlled by the rich and powerful, especially in countries like the US where corporate lobbying reigns supreme. You could argue that it's ultimately capitalist incentives that create this paradigm, but I would say that those incentives are upheld by the same powerful individuals who benefit from them.
tl;dr, the climate crisis is caused by certain individuals.
the whole "the climate crisis isn't the fault of people" is an excuse for the religious and rich and stupid to continue with business as usual until the environment collapses and we are all dead
reasoning with them is like trying to de-program a cult member (the religious), get a drug addict to give up drugs (the rich and their avarice), or teach a windows user to learn linux (the stupid and learning new things that make sense)
the intelligent people need to stop trying to reason with these three tar pit groups and force them to adhere to our will
but the reality is that this should have happened 50 to 100 years ago and it's probably too late. we're sort of of at the "is it better to be in the blast zne or slightly outside the blast zne" phase of environmental collapse. the problem is mostly religion, which has doomed us.
It's particularly funny because Stonehenge is almost entirely a reconstruction and not a partially destructive one at that. Iirc there are even legit photos of the henge stones in piles on the ground.
Ed: you can down vote but it's true, it's been continually knocked down and rebuilt throughout its history.
Activists (try to) do that as well. But it's much harder to get close to a rich person or their property, than it is to do something in public spaces. They, too, have to see what they can do with their limited resources.
Next, the media coverage is very unequal, as well as reader's interest. You are much more likely to click on an article covering a potentially outrageous action, than you are to read about something which does not bother anyone. Although you can rest assured, these things are tried and done frequently.
So naturally, to the uninvolved reader, it may seem as if activists don't do anything but stupid stunts. And naturally, each outsider seems to think they have a much better grasp of strategy and what actions might make sense than the people who are actually involved in these things.
Of course, a particular action can still be silly. I just want to draw attention to biases at play, in general.
And if you really have a much better idea how to do something about the climate crisis, then go ahead and shine as an example. Not only would you author an actually impactful action (which in itself should be reason enough), you could also show all these rookie activists how to get things done. If your example is convincing, you should see less media coverage about inferior actions.
At least someone is doing something. The governments are way to slow imho.
Also, there is literally no harm done. So everybody hyperventilating in the comments should maybe calm down a little.
Yeah, actively giving talking points to right wing climate policy opponents and alienating the people that support their cause. That sure is something.
If you support the cause you would understand no harm was done, and media attention was generated, as planned. If you want to have a excuse for your inaction you bitch on the internet about it.
No harm was done to the stonehenge. No harm was done to the cause to stop climatechange. These actions get people talking about climate change, that is the plan and it was a succes.
There are many different types of action that can be taken. Some people write letters, other consume less, etc. In the end they all work towards the same goal. But they require action. If you are not interested in changing the world and yourself for the better, no one can convince you. But if you want to create change, you will and you can. And then you will do so no matter what other people may think or do.
Negative reactions. I don't know anyone who identifies with these movements and actions, on the contrary. As someone who's trying to convince relatives to eat and act more sustainably, I feel it's an uphill battle because they don't want to side with these actions.
You're not being an activist, just an asshole and not just to the people you want to be an asshole to
Most activist organizations tend to do things that perpetuate themselves instead of trying to deal with the problem they are claiming to solve. That includes terrorist organisations too.
Now that's just BS, sorry. Not a single person who was on the fence of doing something against climate change will go "oh well but I didn't like the method of those protesters, now I won't do it".
The people who are constantly looking for excuses to do literally nothing are lost to climate action anyway. Every meaningful progress will have to be won against those people, not with them. If even slight inconveniences are too much to ask from them sure, they will shout and cry how this protest is the reason, but let's be honest: They were never going to be a part of the solution anyway.
It's not BS it's reality. Especially for older generations, but not only, the way other people perceive them and their beliefs is important. If by supporting vegetarianism, climate advocacy, et. al they will be perceived as supporting these types of actions they won't do it. Is it stupid? Absolutely, but it's reality and a demographic of people you won't be getting for your cause and for climate we can't afford to lose credibility and supporters.
With this lack of nuance and understanding is how the left loses voters to the far right, and how activists lose supporters they can't afford to lose
The BS part is that they would have done anything helpful to the cause without the protest.
This is just another excuse. "People think I support throwing starch at Stonehenge" is not a reason to vote conservative and eat red meat at every meal.
We are trying to make people change the way they live and act, of course most of them will find any excuse to not do it. The "any attention is good" way of doing things is a far right tactic and shouldn't be used. It gives them the perfect excuse to not align with the beliefs and just maintain their ways.
That's not the tactic here at all. The people who are outraged aren't important. They will never participate meaningfully. Those people are and forever will be part of the problem. So it doesn't matter if they're angry now. This isn't about them.
Gaining momentum within the movement, keep public attention high, pressure politicians to public statements, legitimise other forms of protests, encourage public debate, inspire involvement of people who generally support them, to name a few.
On the other hand there isn't a single form of protest that wouldn't be either ignored or used as an excuse for inactivity by the people you claim to want to reach. Or could you name even a single example that would make them actually do something?
There it is. You want attention no matter if it's positive or not. Which type of support do you expect to gather by vandalising monuments? Encourage public debate by vandalising monuments?
Normal protests, even if "angrier" would be better than this. Earn peoples' trust and respect
Public attention to the matter of climate change. Sorry that I didn't spell it out for you.
Care to answer my question though? Because if you have not a single idea what form of protest could actually sway the people you claim to want to reach, we can just as well continue with the cornstarch.
Public attention to the matter of climate change. Sorry that I didn't spell it out for you.
Yes I got that but my point still stands, and you're still contradicting yourself.
Care to answer my question though? Because if you have not a single idea what form of protest could actually sway the people you claim to want to reach, we can just as well continue with the cornstarch
So the people who go "I would have done something, but now that they painted stonehenge I won't" will suddenly change their way when they see "normal protest" as you call them?
Suuuure. Keep telling yourself that. You're not sounding ridiculous at all.
Spraying paint is the better kind of protest to get people to talk about the issues. Much better than actually making themselves an enemy by blocking cars
They're not doing anything except virtue signalling.
What did you do during the climate crisis, grandpa? Did you canvass politicians? Did you install solar panels? Did you vote for the green party? Did you blockade drilling sites? Did you run for Parliament?
No Jimmy I sprayed paint on some old rocks
May as well stay at home and stab yourself in the head with a fork until you black out.
Well so far I've painted all the rocks in my garden neon yellow, so I've done about the same as those twats.
Oh, and also all the things I mentioned in my previous post (except run for Parliament), so there is that.
Doesn't actually take that much fucking effort. I can't guarantee that my actions will have definite results, but what I can say for sure is that at least I'm doing things that are actually targeted at fixing the problem and not just getting attention so that a bunch of useless wankers can feel self-righteous.
Certainly my solar panels will contribute something at least.
Look at the raging reactions in the comments to a little bit of starch. If they would actually destroy something, let alone hurt someone, they'd be framed as terrorists and prosecuted in a heartbeat.
They're pretending to fund these groups because they care about the environment but it's obvious all they're doing is paying radicals to create hate for environmental groups.
Or you fell for the propaganda that's discrediting them.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter. Far too little is being done against climate change, on every level - socially, politically, economically, individually. One would have to wonder what the fuck is happening if we didn't have some form of protest. They are necessarily going to become more extreme as time goes by, and they will have every right to do so.
Climate change is being talked every single goddamn day. It's been a constant thing people talk for a long while. Sometimes it's overshadowed by other topics but the talk has never stopped. This shit isn't some silenced issue. The issue isn't how much people are talking but how little people are doing.
Normally I'm tepid on this kinda headline getting, but I feel like Stonehenge of all things is not the ideal target for the supposed intent of these kinds of protests.
Why not? They used starch. It's not like Stonehenge is actually damaged. And using symbols people care about is the only way to convey that the crisis we're facing is actually threatening things we care about. Everything else will be, and has been, ignored.
It was the Bronze and Iron age, even the people who swore they didn't do human sacrifice had sneaky backdoor rituals that played out human sacrifice, cough cough Romans cough cough
No it really doesn't, getting called stupid is far below the standard of even the minimal consequences oil and gas companies have faced in those 50 years. Or the public condemnation of such.
These people are the "bUt DeMs SaMe!" of facing the consequences of their own actions. The only way you could genuinely think nothing is being done and that some forever student college kids are getting harsher treatment than the most hated companies in the world is if you're in a position of blinding privilege that obscures the real world movement in the situation.
There are thing done, yes, but these are too little too late and only after massive protests and public outcries for any kind of legislation to somewhat mildly stop climate change (with tummy ache).
So on one hand we have multi millionaires and billionaires actively destroying the planet, spend decades spreading lies about it and bribing politicians (but it’s called lobbying so it’s ok)
On the other hand we have people in their teens and 20s who throw soup at glass and paint at rocks and sit on the street.
Guess which one goes into preventive custody and gets officially declared a suspect of extremism by German intelligence and which one every now and then has to accommodate to some laws taking effect 10 years into the future, which will most likely be abolished before then.
You're just saying all this because you think anything short of guillotining them is "too little too late", I work in renewables, I literally have a paycheck because of how flat out objectively wrong you are about almost everything you just said.
They want you to despair and to think they're untouchable, don't be the idiot who actually buys what they're selling.
I have the suspicion for a while that the people behind those new climate movements are paid by oil companies and others to make climate activists look bad, and shift the public opinion about climate action.
All the actions seem to deliberately targeted to anger the mainstream about them.
Making the naive climate activists at the front the tool of conglomerates.
Idk man, sometimes reality is stranger than fiction. Like wasn't there reporting about the US recently in which the military was spreading antivax misinformation in the Philippines and other countries. Russia and China has their own cyber armies too. It's not too much of a stretch that large conglomerates and corpos may have their own private propaganda wings either.
I also saw some evidence further down this thread that oil companies provide funding to this group that I had previously been unaware of. I deleted my comment shortly after that but it might still be showing up because federation can be screwy.
Hmmm, I would keep an open mind though. It's not like these oil companies are dumb. They know that their reputation is bad. Slip a few million into the pockets of their enemies and "leak" information that they "the big baddies" are funding these seemingly unlikeable people, and that would likely slowly damage their reputation beyond repair. Although that may just be some light conspiracism on my part.
Edit Addendum: I do think that whatever actions that just stop oil has done are ultimately harmless to whatever object they """""vandalize""""". Their actions are very good at getting public attention on climate change, and maybe even boosting donations to less radical climate activist groups.
The climate is neither a constant. Therefore it should be allowed to be manipulated freely? We should be allowed to preserve what we find valuable. Dramatic climate change won't be the end of human life, just human life as we know it. Climate will change, but we shouldn't affect it freely at our will at a higher pace than natural.
We should also preserve the wonders built by earlier civilizations.
