The majority of European antisémites have zero problem with the existence of Israel "out there". They are more than happy to see the Jews leave Europe for the middle east. American antisémites are fantasizing that Israel will be the site of the Second Coming of Christ who will then turn all the Jews into Christians.
This observation alone should tell you everything about why it is stupid and wrong to use attitudes towards Israel as proxy measures for attitudes towards Jews. When the antisémites pass your metric with flying colours whereas Jewish anti-Zionists fail it, your metric is just shit, simple as that.
And thats why I will NEVER vote for any of these fucks again! My Party won’t make it into the Bundestag? I DON’T CARE! Because the other Party’s won’t represent me anyway, so I can easily vote for my small Party which at least represents me! 💜
I mean maybe Israel should stop their genocide and, I dunno, try to peacefully coexist and maybe return the fucking stolen homes to their owners? Yeah, some Israelis may need to leave. That's on their government for establishing an apartheid state and then attempting genocide to keep it rather than try to live in peace and harmony with Palestinians.
To be honest, countries don't have right to exists countries don't have rights. Rights are inneherently for humans. It's a stupid notion, countries are established by violence and their borders are enforced through violence, it means that Israel or any country has the right to use violence against those whom they judge to threaten their existence. And that includes the population of said country, if the people of country A decides one day to become country B, they can't because country A has a right to exist but not the none-existing country B.
And that seems to be the crux of this whole mess. We conflate Jews the ethnicity, Jews the religion, Israelis, the Israel state and the Israeli government, and you either accept that the whole package is totally just, or you're an antisemit...
Considering the German government will do basically anything to get away from even the slightest hint of antisemitism, I can see exactly why they're doing this.
But it's comical for Germany to be bending over backwards to avoid repeating it's genocidal past whilst turning a complete blind eye to an actual ongoing genocide.
...and at the same time supporting racist and anti-migrant narratives to "fight" the fascist AfD. Which, obviously, just strengthens that narrative and hence the AfD.
What kinda fascist, authoritarian bullshit is this? I'm seriously considering giving up my German citizenship (I also hold citizenship in another EU country that recognizes Palestine) because of this. Although I would regularly have to go to the consulate for administrative tasks like renewing my ID, it would be worth it.
Edit: I am a firm supporter of a two-state solution, but one of the two states is not interested in that whatsoever. It is the exact state that is ruled by an antidemocratic, fascist, ethno-supremacist government, which is constantly murdering innocent civilians.
Israel has a right to the 1947 territory set by the UN. But not a single square centimeter more than that.
I specifically responded to your last sentence. If you are OK with for example Israel in the UN recognised borders of 1947, then you don't deny the right of the state of Israel to exist, which is all that is being asked for.
The current Israeli state defines itself as holding all of the territory. I do not recognize that state. The current form of the Israeli state is not suitable for a peaceful solution to the problems in the region. I don't think that the idea of an Israeli state should be completely abolished, but it must not try to occupy more territory than was planned by the UN in 1947. Until then, I can't take these terrorists seriously.
I actually read the new law, and it doesn't seem that bad. I haven't found a single question that directly requires an applicant to recognize the state of Israel, but there are some questions that involve Israel and kinda require that someone at least acknowledges the existence of Israel, in order to answer them.
The intention is good I suppose, but it seems unfair to those who don't believe that nation-states in general have rights that should require our affirmation, even while they have many powers we must respect. Are they also made to affirm the right of Germany to exist? They've made a rule which denies would-be citizens the right to espouse anarchism, which seems like a step in the direction of removing human rights.
You get denied citizenship when you dont shake a womans hand so absolutely fair for us to gatekeep who gets in and is allowed to vote. We already had enough nazis in our history.
Me? I'm not so anarchist that I personally have a problem with pledging allegiance to a flag or whatevs, just anarchist enough that I find it somewhat odd when people assume that everyone is part of "you" and "us" groups of that kind.
I guess it's just that having to acknowledge the sovereign powers of some country other than the one you're applying for citizenship in is unusual enough to make this sort of weird power to define our views of the world that the modern state has achieved stand out a little more than usual.
If only they did the same with Palestine... That would be even better! Of course, many countries (Germany included) are yet to recognize that country because of reasons (fear included, specially Germany!)
But this fact is completely unrelated to OP and to your response aswell.
I think you came here for one reason only. And that not to add anything useful to the discussion. Instead, you prefer to open entirely new topics to push your agenda about something.
How about I put all of this in relation to climate change now? Maybe we can discuss this next.
No, you're just inventing a problem where there is none. The existence of a country is completely and utterly unrelated to anything you're talking about. I don't know how else to explain it.
That Israelis colonized Palestine and created a state on top of the British mandate via forced removal of the local population starting in early 20th century and culminating with formation of the state of Israel after what the Germans did during ww2.
You can start like that :)
And because of this Germans somehow feel morally absolved of the crimes while also obligated to support this abomination
Borders were set. Borders are there. Borders aren't changing. History is the past. You just need to accept that. The actions of Israel are a different topic.
You need a history lesson and you need to learn what "Nazi" means and meant. Hearing these words from you is a disgrace to millions of people that died from a genocide and ethnic clensing.
This is a good decision. Antisemitism is on the rise in Germany. 4782 antisemitic incidents in 2023, which is 83% more than the year before. 58% of these incidents occured after Oct 7.
These statistic say little as the German police does not properly distinguish between antisemitism and anti-zionism.
But regardless, if you are so extreme in your views that you can't accept the existence of the state of Israel in some shape or form, you are probably not a good fit for German society.
It is quite reductive to say anti-zionism is just denying the right of Israel to exist. Yes, the state of Israel is a deeply zionist project but you can accept the reality of this state existing and still be opposed to the idea of zionism in general.
I am opposed to the idea of colonialism in general but still accept the existence of states with a colonial history.
I'm not sure what you want to imply here. I do not see the benefit in asking the offender why they beat up the Jewish person.
I cited numbers from a study by RIAS (Wiki, German), this is not from a police statistic.
The study distinguishes Isreal-related antisemitism, meaning the incidents were directed against the Jewish state of Israel and denied its legitimacy. This kind of antisemitism was 52%.
Incidence does not mean "beating up" someone. Spray painting "stop the genocide in Gaza" is sometimes counted as an "antisemitic incidence" in Germany.
Just to give an orientation: denying Israel's right to exist, i.e. antizionism, including the Slogan: 'From the river to the sea – Palestina shall be free', counts as antisemitism, while criticising the Israeli government for killing civilians does not. Cheering Hamas killing Israeli civilians counts as appreciation of terror and antisemitism.
including the Slogan: 'From the river to the sea – Palestine shall be free'
As it should, this phrase and it's Israeli counterpart "between the sea and the Jordan there will be only Israeli sovereignty" are often accompanied by calls for mass deportation at best and genocide at worst.
These sentences are not bad on their own, but the parties from which they originate (Hamas and Likud) have transparent desires for war crimes and genocide.
While I don't doubt that more Germans are becoming more antisemitic, promoting zionism does not combat antisemitism. Lord Balfor (of the Balfor Declaration), was extremely antisemitic. He was very explicit about how removing jews from Britain and getting a shiny new colony were both positives.
That article you linked does not contain anything controversial. No shit, "from the river to the sea" is forbidden in Germany and attending a forbidden demonstration where crimes are conducted has the risk of being detained.
She was released shortly afterwards but says: “I didn’t think I would get detained for that – I was naive it turns out.”
Don't act like people end up in prison here for criticizing the state of Israel. People get detained for a couple of hours in the context of demonstrations all the time. Stop derailing, the article from the Qatari news agency you linked does not add anything here.
Yeah no in the context of a german explaining why rounding up jews and throwing them in jail for protesting Israel is no big deal, you gotta be really, really obvious when you're making a joke since we're already well past poe's law.
But it's depressing every time I talk politics with one and it turns out they're a "leftist" who's actually a liberal, or an "anarchist" who's a zionist, or a "green" who supported ending all nuclear power (which restarted their coal industry), an "anti-imperialist" who only opposes Germany's enemies.
I expect this level of ignorance from American liberals who've literally never had a thought outside bourgeois democracy, half of Germany was communist until 30 years ago, they don't have an excuse.
From the river to the sea is not forbidden in Germany. There are several court rulings on this. Ironically, when Netanyahu wants a Jewish ethnostate from the river to the sea, that is perfectly fine for the same people who erroneously claim that saying „ From the river to the sea“ would be forbidden to say.
Yes, I support ethnic cleansing, apartheid and genocide as long as it’s committed by Israel! Unconditionally. From the river to the sea.
And I think the German government should be very rigorous in deciding which words and expressions constitute a negation of Israels right to exist.
For example One State Solution. Or Two State Solution. Or Intifada. Or Nakba. Or Illegal Settlements. Or Illegal Occupation. Or Apartheid. Or Genocide. Or Palestinians. Or Palestine. Or Westbank. Or Gaza.
Whoever utters one of these words in connection with Israel should have their German citizenship revoked.
Furthermore, I humbly ask for permission to despise not only Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims and dark-skinned people in general from the bottom of my heart, but also anti-Semitic Jewish traitors who incite hatred against Israeli policy and demand a just solution for the Palestinians. Such as Gideon Levy, Breaking the Silence, Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Ilan Pappé, Avi Shlaim, Max Blumenthal, Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP), Simone Zimmerman, Jewish Currents, Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi, Jews for Justice for Palestinians (JJP), IfNotNow, Naomi Klein, Judith Butler, Never Again Action, Independent Jewish Voices (IJV), Neve Gordon, Hiam Bresheeth, Miko Peled, Zach Foster, Andrew Feinstein, Haim Zabner, Miko Peled, Omer Bartov, B'tselem, Rick Perlstein
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Heiß