The specific problem with both systems is that they are controlled by a central entity. Sounds harmless enough on a first glance.
However, this also means that whoever owns/controls this system, can control a lot of people very effectively. This could be used for good but is instead mostly used to keep people in line.
This makes it easy for a single person/small group to control an entire nation, which I think is a bad thing.
Good thing that the system in China is in the hands of the working majority. If you look at how Chinese political system is structured it becomes clear that it's not in fact in the hands of a small group of people.
I do not believe that is the case. Mainly because of their questionable choices. Things like their great Firewall, which also censors political topics that the government does not approve or the perseution of certain ethnic groups. I don't belive a majority of the people would want to do things like that.
Or the covid “quarantine” that had mass protests and went on with roaming squads of police to ensure no one went outside. Sounds like a majority choice lol. That person is spewing chinese propaganda.
Claiming that taking tough measures to arrest the spread of the pandemic instead of letting millions of people die the way west did was a bad decision is the height of psychopathy. You are one sick individual.
You’re putting a lot of words in my mouth my guy. You said the Chinese government is run by the majority workers. I’m giving an example of how the majority wanted something, and the minority said otherwise. Not only said otherwise, but imprisoned anyone that dissented. Like all government, the few control the many.
The “zero covid” policy in china was absolutely insane.
AND, guess what, I was able to argue my point without calling names. Lmao.
Majority of people in China actually wanted to have a safe environment. I guess just making shit up is what passes for making an argument in your head. LMAO indeed.
Ah, yes, as we see Here the famously outspoken Chinese population welcoming the lockdown with open arms.
In a country where civil gatherings are largely unheard of outside of the respective country, these just super vocal minority thinkers, got 1000’s of people to risk their way of life just for the fun of it. Just cause they wanted to make sure to let the government know how excited they were for their turn to go to prison!
Outside the tongue in cheek, my friend, you cannot tell me this is what the majority wanted. You like/live in china, you should know what it costs those people to even make headlines anywhere. And how many there were.
There is nothing questionable about those choices. For example, the firewall is the reason why China has its own domestic tech industry while the rest of the world is dominated by a handful of US companies. Meanwhile, censorship of capitalist views is good actually. And the idea that the government prosecutes certain ethnic groups has no actual basis in reality. This notion has been debunked to death but people in the west will keep repeating this because that's what they want to believe.
I mean, I guess if that’s where we’re going to go, it doesn’t matter what I say, the number of organizations, within the UN, outside the UN, independent, dependent. You’re just going to call bullshit because who said it isn’t happening? China? Odd, I wonder what they’d have to gain by saying they aren’t committing human atrocities.
There are no organizations, to my knowledge, that are dying on the hill that there’s absolutely nothing happening with the Uyghurs.
There are a lot of reports that say shits going down. Yes, I’m sure a lot of it is editorialized. Just like anything about America in those countries. I’m not naive enough to believe anyone at face value but I’m not going to write off everything as propaganda either. Even China says the camps exist basically specifically for them, for “reeducation”. Which, sure, maybe the people need, but, to believe that at face value is a level of bliss I would love to reach.
And before anyone goes “well the US..” I CONDEMN THAT SHIT TOO. Stop fucking murdering people. There isn’t some magical government that’s better than anyone else. They all fucking suck.
But to pretend it isn’t happening, that’s a tragedy. I hope if someone has to give you compassion on that level, you get it. Cause it’s the least we can do to each other.
Sigh, alright I guess I'll address the nonsense in detail for you. The whole conspiracy theory started with a claim of millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”.
However, this claim is completely absurd when you stop and think about it even for a minute. That figure 1 million is repeated again and again. Let's just look at how much space would you actually need to intern one million people.
This is a photo of Rikers Island, New York City's biggest prison. The actual size of a facility interning ten thousand people.
According to Wikipedia, "The average daily inmate population on the island is about 10,000, although it can hold a maximum of 15,000." Let's assume this is a Xinjiang detention camp, holding ten to fifteen thousand people. How many of these would it take to hold one million people?
Let's do some math:
Rikers Size
Rikers Prisoners
One Million Uyghurs Size
413.2 acres (0.645 square miles)
10,000 to 15,000
43 to 64 square miles
In reality, one million people would probably take more space; all the supposed detention camps we see are much less dense than Rikers.
For comparison, San Francisco is 47 square miles. Amsterdam is 64 square miles. You'd literally need detention camps that total the size of San Francisco or Amsterdam to intern one million Uyghurs. It'd be like looking at a map of California. There's Los Angeles. There's San Diego. And look, there's San Francisco Concentration City with its one million Uyghurs.
Practically all the stories we see about China trace back to Adrian Zenz is a far right fundamentalist nutcase and not a reliable source for any sort of information. The fact that he's the primary source for practically every article in western media demonstrates precisely what I'm talking about when I say that coverage is divorced from reality.
Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.
The fact that this nutcase is being paraded as a credible researcher on the subject is absolutely surreal, and it's clear that the methodology of his "research" doesn't pass any kind of muster when examined closely.
It's also worth noting that there is a political angle around the narrative around Xinjiang. For example, here's George Bush's chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and NED recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this book. Here's an excerpt:
It's also worth noting that the accusations originate entirely from the west while Muslim majority countries support China, and their leaders have visited Xinjiang many times.
Well, considering the length of response, and time between them, this was a copy-pasta. But, given the context, I will read through this. I do genuinely want to like have some discourse because, admittedly, I’m not a china expert.
However, you’re going to need to give me time, and this is a lot to go through.
And I may have some counter points and questions, so please be patient?
At the end of the day, I really don’t think china = bad. Us = good. However, I find that whenever I have conversations with anyone about it, on either side, they refuse to see how any sane person could come to a conclusion that isn’t theirs.
I’m very open to changing my mind, but it may take some time if you’re up for it.
Also hitting me with the “YoU ReAd TaBloIDs” then hitting me with a qz article is🤌🏻 however, I’ll be open.
This comes up often enough that I do have the sources handy. And sure, if you have actual questions/points that aren't just flippant then we can discuss those.
I will do my best to add something and questions beyond the “china bad” narrative.
If I do come up with some stuff that you think is disingenuous, please call it out, maybe I’ll be able to rephrase certain things. I’ll reply up a bit in the chain after I look into everything!
No rush, it's a big link dump to go through. Most people don't really bother, so I appreciate the fact that you're willing to actually examine the evidence that's available.
It is certainly a link dump lmao if I do change my mind on the dump alone, I won’t just quietly “ope, guess I’m wrong, delete everything” either hahahah but, I may add some strike through’s and edits as to why I don’t think something as I go. This is going to be my personal deep dive on this topic. If there’s anything I’m strongly “anti” it’s human atrocities. Lmao, high bar, right? But, I do like to light up any government I get to when it comes to that shit.
I would hope most people are against atrocities. The question is ultimately what the truth of any particular situation is, and what the motivations of the people are. Understanding that is not always easy, but a good rule of thumb is that nations tend to be less than truthful about their geopolitical rivals.
Whatever, what would happen to me in China if I went in the street yelling “Xi Jinping can lick my balls”? Cuz that Pooh Bear bitch can straight lick my balls for real.
Let's face it, you can't even find China on a map. You're never going to go to China, you don't give a shit about people living in China. You're just a racist who thinks he's being awful clever. It's sad and pathetic, and everybody can see through it.
Oh I’m racist? Next you’re gonna tell me I am not the same age as her do not touch! Making fun of a government and leader of said government is not racism. You are beyond ridiculous, more ridiculous than the noise Xi Jinping makes when he motorboats my scrote.
There's a key difference: One is based on just your financial history, only on the numbers. The other is based on everything you do all the time, which is way way way more privacy invasive.
But does the corporate data collection factor into your FICO score? Unless there's some new scary development I'm not aware of, the FICO score is only based on the following: length and number of accounts, revolving utilization, if payments are on time, and the loans you have made (based on the size and frequency of them).
You and your friends' social media activity, among numerous other things, can absolutely affect your ability to get a loan, a job, a rental contract, etc.
When you're rejected for a loan by a bank in the USA you're entitled by law to know the reason. If your credit is good, your job is stable, and you've got no history of finance-related crime then you won't be denied a loan. If you're denied a loan because of the type of porn you browsed or some shit you said on Twitter, then that's grounds for a discrimination lawsuit.
When you get your credit report, there is a statistical breakdown of your score and all of the sources on the report. So, if there is something as stupid as a social media adjustment, you can contest that.
If I clicked every link sent to me by some CCP cuck on lemmy I'd be reading for the next 87 years straight and none of my questions would be answered.
If you can argue my point then do so, if you can't then stfu. I made a pretty simple statement, now you have the opportunity to retort. Everything impacting your credit score is listed directly on your credit report, and you can contest these entries.
Edit: I can't respond to replies from the deeply unserious users of the cowardly instances that have defederated from HB, nor those instances so filled with liberalism and foolishness (but I repeat myself) that we had no choice but to defederate from them. Go read a book.
It is real, it was first put into use in 2014 with a six year plan to make it fully operational, but it's never reached that point. It not being as big as the CCP intended doesn't make it not real, it's still in use right now.
We tried personally evaluating people for loans on their individual merits, and shocker, there was rampant racism and sexism. Having strict metrics, instead of relying on the whims of a dickwad loan agent, is a good thing.
The new system isn't perfect, and yeah, it completely favors people who have parents who know how the system works. But at least it's not explicitly racist or sexist (again, there are of course systemic issues that feed into it).
I get that it's frustrating to, for example, need to have debt in order to qualify for more debt. But in other contexts this is pretty standard --- it's essentially "financial experience."
But yeah. It sucks that you should pay expenses with a credit card rather than debit in the USA. Personally it doesn't matter to me (I pay them off every month), but it sucks for merchants who get stuck with the credit card transaction fees.
You can live without a credit score, even get a mortgage. It's not exactly easy, but it's not that difficult. Once you have a mortgage, you have a good credit score.
The rise of check cards and normalizing paying for everything on plastic was a big tipping point. There's even a Monopoly game that uses electronic cards these days. It lets activity tracking run rampant and of course the banks get to skim a fee off everything.
Franky I see it as having nothing to do with fiscal responsibility (can't overspend the cash on hand) and more just a way to funnel more to those with means than anything. It's funny how cash advances on cards charge a higher rate than purchases despite neither offering a security interest to the card issuer.
Those two aren't all that comparable, but if you're not barred from flying by the federal government and the private airline or local airport stop you from doing so then that's ground for lawsuit. Hell, even if the federal government banned you without proper grounds, you could sue them too, people sue the FBI, TSA, CIA, or CDC all the time.
I got rejected just last week for something pretty inexpensive that I can afford to pay off in installments. My credit score is good and I've never defaulted on any payments before. I live in the UK, not in China.
AFAIK the social credit system that westerners like to mock was only trialled and never implemented. I, on the other hand, have actually been screwed over by my own country's credit score system.
Incorrect, the Social Credit System started in 2014 and was supposed to be operating at full scale in 2020 but they keep missing deadlines. It is in use, has been for a decade, just not as much as the CCP wanted it to be.
The sadder thing is that Chinese social credit hasn’t actually even been implemented, and doesn’t seem like it’s going to. There are only limited local experiments, most of which are allegedly largely irrelevant.
Whereas there are multiple credit score companies currently tracking literally everyone who has a bank account.
It has been implemented, just not at the full scale they originally planned. It started in 2014 and was supposed to be finished by 2020, but has received a lot of pushback and controversies. There are people who are not allowed to fly on a plane, take a train, make a large purchase, or attend certain events in China, that is an undeniable fact.
One of the most well known examples is Xu Xiaodong, a MMA fighter who set out on a journey to expose fake Kung Fu Mystics by challenging them to fights. He relies completely on other individuals to travel, and has to send his videos overseas to be uploaded online because otherwise they get censored by the CCP.
Meanwhile insurance scores in the US gather all sorts of opaque behavioral data via data brokers. And the IMF even thinks you're browser history should influence your credit score.
China is having some of the same wages/productivity split problems that the us has and there’s a vein of thought that says it’s fixable with social incentive programs.
This isn’t 1984 evil authoritarian tankie shit, its liberal reform shit.
And as another reply to you mentioned, a lot of the “social” factors are reported to the big 3 credit reporting agencies through denials based on giant weird datasets anyway, so the “normal” credit score is a “social” credit score in disguise.
Incorrect, the Social Credit system was started in 2014 and intended to operate at full scale before 2020 but it's still not there, yet. It's been in use for over a decade, just not as much as the CCP wants it to be.
What's that? You don't think you should have a score that keeps track of everyone's mundane behaviors and ranks them? But what if I want to cross the street between crosswalks, or need to spit, or feel like criticizing the government? Anybody who does those things should be banned from even buying groceries, or having children. Maybe we should send the death van.
There's a difference between wanting to have good credit so that you can benefit from a garbage system and wanting that system to exist in the first place.
I'm a leftist who dislikes capitalism, but I can admit that credit scores were a step up from the way loans were done before. The old way just made it so the banks themselves decided who they wanted to issue a loan to, and that led to a lot of racism and sexism when it came to giving the loans out.
Still, I do think we can come up with a better system than the current credit score system, and I think you have the right idea to point out it's flaws to start the wheels turning on improving it.
your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. the ability to live indoors is going to be important to people even if they think the system by which we decide who is allowed to live indoors is kinda shit.
I'm honestly unsure. What is the alternative? Instead of a pre-emptive risk assessment of whether or not you can pay something, more people just receive punishments when they end up not being able to?
I don't like being judged or told what I can or cannot pay back a month from now, but on a large scale doesn't this mostly protect people from dangerous debts? For the opponents, what is the proposed alternative?
on a large scale doesn't this mostly protect people from dangerous debts?
Not really. It just ends up with lenders offering far more predatory interest rates, which worsens the situation for the debtor. The system is set up in such a way that you can spiral pretty hard with a single misstep.
For the opponents, what is the proposed alternative?
I’d imagine this is the crux of the problem. Banks need some way to determine if someone will pay back their loans, and what better way than to tabulate their history of doing just that? Should banks be willing to take risks in a system with stuff like the 7 year rule?
If it was about the ability to pay back loans, then why does it go down when I finish paying the loan? Its about your ability to pay as much interest as possible.
Part of your credit score is also the present. It’s more than a bit predatory, but not having any current financial responsibilities looks bad. For example, if you have no loans whatsoever but paid back a bunch in the past, there’s little evidence saying you can currently pay them off. At least, that’s the theory of it.
Given that there are plenty of developed countries where credit scores don't exist (and plenty more where they do but only for businesses), I think alternatives are imaginable. I would know, I live in one such country.
If you want a mortgage here, the bank will:
Ask you about your current loans and potential past defaults
Ask you about your current and past income, marital status, employment status, etc.
Use those variables to pretty straightforwardly determine your loan capacity
I think do a background check in national databases for defaults/"bad payer" status
Contractually obligate you to receive your salary on the same account from which they will automatically pull the mortgage. I don't think this helps reduce actual defaults much, but it probably greatly reduces the financial and administrative overhead of late/missed payments. Also this ties you into the creditor bank which is good for business, IDK how standard that practice is abroad.
The US consumer economy is very highly dependent on short-term/credit debt, and that is absolutely crazy to me. Some Americans say they "need" a credit card to defer payment on some purchases, and as someone raised in culture where debit is king this sounds absolutely insane. Y'all have been propagandized, here it is perfectly normal to not have a single credit line open before shopping for a mortgage and if anything your banker will commend you for it.
I'd like credit scores systems to be fully public and developed by the government. It would be far better than the three private systems Americans deal with now.
Finally! It's just too bad my insurance score is still too low for me to get the required homeowner's insurance because the car company shared my driving data with insurance data brokers, and they don't like that I park in front of bars every Friday night, they don't know it's because I have a third job as a busboy. It's ok though, cause at least I'm still free to tip my landlord, and employment rates are up!
But remember. You're paying his mortgage and you can't deduct that from your taxes but he can deduct his mortgage from his taxes (the same mortgage that you paid)
My husband and I bought ours in 2019, and I feel like we did so in the nick of time, and that's with being on two programs and taking an additional loan for the down payment, and that's because paying the mortgage was lower than renting an apartment at the time.
People can't afford housing anymore. I feel guilty even owning a house because it's gotten so bad (even though the bank technically owns this shit).
Oh don't worry, we've got a lot of them here as well. I know a lot of good people too, but everyone is stretched so thin with work and trying to survive.
Buying a house was what pushed me from Bernie flavored socialist to full on leftist. We were lucky enough to find and qualify for a community land trust and it is such a better system than anything else in America. It should just be how housing is done available to everyone, not just people who qualify.
I feel guilty even owning a house because it’s gotten so bad
It’s not like prices are going to rise forever. Market cycles are natural. There will be a crash, and there will be cheaper homes once again, and as long as the government is competent, random businesses won’t buy them all with the intent to rent them out to potential homeowners.
Thats a seperate issue, that is central banks and over regulation of the housing market. This has devalued your wages and made housing too expensive. And the sad part is BOTH of the parties support these things (if you are an american).
Well in China you could buy an apartment that should be built in a year but will never actually be built. That's how you know China is better than America.
