Maggoty ,

We need to figure out college in the US. There's way too much dead weight meant to justify tuition in most programs. I'm sorry but I don't need to know how to write research papers to do half the fields taught in college. Dropping that dead weight would make college far more attainable for so many people.

If we can't stop businesses from requiring degrees, and we can't, then we need a hard look at what's in a degree.

Also, the government needs to back off requiring degrees for so much stuff too. For example they want a degree to tell people nearing retirement age what their options are and to do the paperwork. I'm sorry but that's not what college is about. Unless there's a technical need that cannot be fulfilled with certifications or practical tests, (code a coffee machine for me, and build the stack), it should not require a degree.

Going by job listings you'd think literally everyone other than construction, military, retail, food, and security, has a degree.

Facebones ,

Its not about learning, its about paying your dues to the church of capitalism

PieMePlenty ,

For the US, id certainly agree with you. College is free here and some employers require it (less and less though). A coworker once told me a degree shows you can be serious for one thing and see it through. It shows you are capable of achieving a goal.

cheers_queers ,

that's still such an ableist take. (as someone in the usa)

villainy ,

Can you expand on this? I'm curious what you find ableist about it.

cheers_queers ,

some people are just unable to go to college due to finances, physical/mental health, or other things like being a single parent. i was never able to go to college because i couldn't mentally handle the stress due to serious trauma of various kinds that i was just coming out of. i couldn't find a job to adequately support me and i had health issues and undiagnosed learning disabilities preventing me from having the energy or time to focus even on part time studies. i had no family, so no safety net. i tried taking college thru a work program but the college ended up being unaccredited.

and keep in mind some people have several/all of these things to deal with.

so to say that seeing someone went thru college shows they can stick to something, it's negating all the hidden struggles that the rest of us work every day to get thru. I'm on year 7 of my current job, so i can clearly commit. but saying that college is the measuring stick is kinda disrespectful for those who had a different path.

chonglibloodsport ,

Employers are inherently ableist. They discriminate against people who are unable to do the job. They also discriminate for reasons unrelated to job performance, but then measuring job performance is very difficult even when someone has been working at a company for years.

Note that in professional sports and in Hollywood it’s quite easy to measure performance. Accordingly, you see athletes and actors compensated in a way that’s much more in line with their job performance than other industries.

MystikIncarnate ,

I believe your coworker is right to some extent. Getting a degree is a lot of work. It demonstrates your ability to do work and get things done.... Among other things.

Having any degree/post secondary diploma, generally says you have the ability to work on something without being forced into it. IMO, HS is generally expected and more or less forced on everyone, so it doesn't really count.

While I believe that's the motivation behind needing a degree to get a job, I also, personally, don't agree with it. There's plenty of hardworking people who never even considered college/uni after HS. Some of them are much more motivated and hardworking than the people I knew from my time in college.

I work in IT, and see degree requirements on all sorts of job postings. It's bullshit, since there's haven't been IT centric degrees until very recently, outside of CS/development. Most of these jobs don't require any programming whatsoever. They'll be for helpdesk, system administration, networking, etc. Programming knowhow might help but it's definitely not required. I don't need Java, or C++, or Python, or any other language to know how to click buttons on dialogs in Windows.

some_guy ,

I had terrible imposter syndrome when I landed a sw dev job. I thought everyone could tell that I didn't belong. I was / am self-taught. Everyone had CS degrees. I thought I was a fraud. I later recalibrated to realize that I'd earned it even harder without a degree. But I had to get that spot to be able to leverage my knowledge. There are probably people who know a lot more than me getting rejected because they don't have the right credentials.

bruhduh , avatar

Brother, recently i landed my first official job as system administrator (I'm still in university as EE), even though i know almost all things, i just don't know nuances of how they adapted these technologies we know of in their specific case, and i am too felt terrible imposter syndrome

NigelFrobisher ,

25 years after graduation in CS I’m still waiting for the Pumping Lemma to have any relevance to my work as a dev.

Vivendi , avatar

Get a job in scientific computing then

Even stuff like simulation engines can make a grown man cry

NigelFrobisher ,

I’m glad I don’t have to cry. I was just terrified initially that to do this kind of work you had to be really good at maths and stuff, but actually you’re just taking user input and putting it in a database, then getting it out later to show back to the user, fluffing stakeholders, and often rewriting the code you already did in a new framework or architecture that looks good on your resume.

JackbyDev ,

CS degrees, at least in my experience, prep you for a bunch of things that honestly don't matter too much. Like, I don't think knowing what P versus NP means really helps me at my job. I think learning to use build tools and frameworks rather than just the language itself would've been more useful.

The best professor I had in that regard at college was younger and also working at a "real" company while also teaching (I believe he was getting a master's degree). He taught us about Spring and Maven and had us make a REST API. The only downside is that this course was about making GUIs and the majority of it was about Swing which nobody really uses. I have a feeling he added the other assignment because it was.more relevant to things most folks do with Java.

Takumidesh ,

It's because computer science degrees aren't really programming degrees.

A computer science degree sets you up to be a scientist, most common dev jobs are just glorified Lego sets patching libraries together and constructing queries. There is skill, knowledge, and effort in those jobs, but they are fundamentally different.

Most common software dev jobs are closer to the end user than not.

gamermanh , avatar

I never managed to land a job in the field but of the 4 interviews I ever got actually related to IT every single one mentioned that I was technically overqualified for these entry-level jobs despite never officially going to school or working in IT, one of them called and had the lead back-ens guy come and sit in since I was a potential fit for an entirely different and much higher up role

Of course that's probably the reason I was never hired over other options (as well as why I didn't get many interviews, who wants the guy with 0 education if the other 20 applicants do?) and so now every time I do IT work for home I just get super sad. It's taking a lot of therapy to undo that and it's not reeeeally working lol

Apytele , (edited )

Nursing school was basically,"here's how to not kill anyone while you spend a year working to become a nurse." They give you the license when you prove you're unlikely to kill someone, but you don't really have any idea what you're doing until at least a year in and even after that 90% of nursing knowledge is still gained out on the floor.

Most university level nursing education is either specific role related (teaching or management) or useless fluff, especially standalone bachelor's programs (you already have and have been working under an associate's). Even NP school is mostly fluff too though unfortunately. The assumption is that the candidate is a senior nurse with several decades of experience, but in practice that's not always true (I maintain that new grads going to NP school should be banned; it's dangerous).

jimrob4 , avatar

Me, reads comments: Man there's a lot more of the 'college ain't nuthin' but debt and a piece of paper' people on Lemmy than I thought there were.

Ya'll are just trying to overcompensate for feeling inadequate about not going to college. If you don't go, don't go. It's not for everyone. But don't shit on and downplay the people who have the talent and ability to do so.

"It just teaches you do be a useful tool of the machine!" yeah that's exactly what someone who didn't go or shouldn't have went to college would think.

Chakravanti ,

Not going to college doesn't mean a lack of talent or ability.

In fact, going to college doesn't mean you have either of those either.

Here, you want one of my lollipops?

jimrob4 , avatar

Not going to college doesn't mean a lack of talent or ability.

I didn’t say that. Thanks for proving my point. 😊

Chakravanti ,

You didn't need to say what you clearly implied.

jimrob4 , avatar

I didn’t imply it. You inferred it. Incorrectly, at that.

People that are perfectly capable of going to college choose not to. Doesn’t make them inferior. And I don’t think they are, by any stretch.

Chakravanti ,

You are just wrong in every reply. I don't even care to write a college level explanation of it to you.

jimrob4 , avatar

From the sounds of it you probably aren't able anyway.

Chakravanti ,

I know better. You're a jackass talking shit to people but obviously know nothing worth talking to. Get a life, loser.

jimrob4 , avatar
Chakravanti , (edited )

I know better than to buy your commercial bullshit, sucker.

jimrob4 , avatar


Chakravanti ,

Ain't you special.

revlayle , avatar

"Forget everything you know about slipcovers!"

menemen ,

Imo university most important task is to teach you the basics and how to accumulate and use the knowledge you need to do a job.

doofy77 ,

That's what school is for.

pingveno ,

Yeah, some of the computer science theory I learned occasionally comes in handy when I'm reasoning about problems or when I'm picking apart some spec. My husband who attended a code school instead is a perfectly apt developer, but he struggles more. College also just gave me the time and resources to get a survey of knowledge outside of formal coursework. On the job, I tend to go more in-depth on topics closely related to the job.

johannesvanderwhales ,

Don't think I've ever actually heard a company say "forget everything you learned in college".

stebo02 , avatar

because they don't

GiveMemes ,

From what I understand it's fairly common in engineering, but less of a forget everything you learned and more of a that’s all gonna be pretty much useless in the context of the specific job you're doing so just pay attention to the training

johannesvanderwhales ,

I can recall employers saying something along the lines of "don't think you know everything about business because you just got a business degree" but that's mostly about the attitude some new grads have.

jimrob4 , avatar

You don't work where I work then.

Family-owned business. Realizes they're behind-the-ball on technology and practices. Hires college-educated & outside people to make suggestions.

"Well none of that makes sense to us. Forget all that and do it our way."

"That way is wrong."

"Well it's our business, we'll do it how we want."

Then they get all <surprised pikachu> when the talented people get burnt out and quit after a few weeks. Eventually it's "well these kids just don't want to work hard like we do."

Apytele ,

...there were a couple things I learned in nursing school that I benefited from forgetting. Mostly the racism and sexism.

lugal ,

The original idea behind school isn't to educate the masses. Why would a factory worker need to know calculus and Shakespeare? He needs to read the clock and timetables, be on time, wake up in the morning early enough to be punctual, ...

Likewise higher education isn't about the thinks you learn. It is about learning methods to learn. If you can learn the nitrogen cycle, you can learn our scrum statuses. If you can hand in your homework in time, you can keep our deadlines.

This isn't to say the system is good, but it helps to understand it when you want to criticize it.

pumpkinseedoil ,

But learning to critically question statements and judging them yourself (which requires some knowledge, for example you can't question anti-vaxxers when you don't know anything about how vaccines work) instead of simply believing them is extremely important in a democracy.

hemko ,

Judging sources for the information requires way less knowledge. To continue your analogy, for most people it's obvious to take your medical advice from your family doctor instead of that crazy aunt in Facebook

pumpkinseedoil ,

While you'd generally believe that to be true it can be hard for people with no knowledge who aren't the brightest to see through statements like "doctors just are part of the wealthy smart people society who aim to keep us down".

Never underestimate human stupidity.

CookieOfFortune ,

The problem is when medicine is for profit, you really do end up with that feeling when doctors are rushed to get you out of the door because they need to see ten patients an hour. When you’re the product it’s harder to build that trust.

It was probably better before when family doctors actually had a relationship with your family.

Uvine_Umbra ,

Dont you think that answer is far to clear cut? How about if it's abstatement heard from a supposed friend's doctor and you dont want to get a hold of your family doctor for as inane of a question as it is?

lugal ,

I have watched YouTube videos of smart people reading a smart book that basically said that our education system has the focus on learning facts which gives us a submissive attitude. It gives us a feeling of passivity, of the silent observer.

That said, I realize that the system is getting better in the sense that it tries to evoke curiosity and makes kids to explorers instead of observers if that makes sense. Also, as someone who got interested in history only after school, I know that basic knowledge is important and bad if missing. Than again, why didn't school make me want to know stuff.

chonglibloodsport ,

There’s ample evidence to show that no one learns critical thinking in college. At best, you select for people who are better at it.

Macaroni_ninja , avatar

Cant you find out the answer for these questions with a series of short tests?

I once applied for a job at IBM and instead of an initial interview they sent me a series of interactive tests to check my skills. I ended up moving to another country and didn't follow through, but still liked this approach.

Also in the EU I can see lots of job listings are using now a system where you either have a certain type of education/degree or a certain previous experience to be eligible to apply.

Still you need to have knowledge of the specific field, but technically if you started at the bottom with an entry level low skill job you can get higher with experience alone and without a university degree.

Transporter_Room_3 , avatar

Can they? Yes. Absolutely. 100%.

A local factory likes people with college degrees, any degree, no matter what college or course, but also offer tests twice a year in large groups for exactly the reason that plenty y of people are qualified, and can do everything they need, but never went to college.

Will they? Probably not unless it's a niche employer. Why bother going through the extra effort when you can just say "degrees only" and turn your nose up at anyone without one?

Macaroni_ninja , avatar

I guess 5 rounds of 90 minutes long multi-stage interview process is much more efficient, where people selling an idealised version of themselves in imaginary scenarios.

Also talking to HR/recruitment department, who has no idea of the actual job is a great way to find the right candidate.

...its ridiculous

Rhynoplaz ,

I hate interviews. I've been on both sides and neither is fun.

One person is pretending to be what they think the employer wants. The other is trying to figure out who's the least full of shit.

I just generally hate situations where everybody is expected to be fake, and not playing the "right character" will get you shunned.

chiliedogg ,

A college degree ahows you can complete a series of seemingly-unrelated tasks (courses) across multiple phases (semesters), to finish a major project (degree).

It means you finish what you start and have an eye on the future instead of the present.

Macaroni_ninja , avatar

Your answer sounds like it was lifted from a LinkedIn motivational post.

College favours the rich, who can afford it and I don't think people with higher education are better at planning their future.

Lots of people are forced through college by their parents, often backed up with money and safety nets of security - if they fail the first time they just throw more money at it and try again.

DontMakeMoreBabies ,

Not everyone has the capacity to make it through college.

chiliedogg ,

A lack of a degree isn't proof of anything, good or bad (for most jobs).

But a degree is a positive indicator.

The reality is that when hiring an employee I don't care how privileged they are. I care about whether they're going to be a good fit for the position.

There are other things people can use to demonstrate their ability to be a good employee. If someone worked for a company for multiple years and was promoted during that time it's a good indicator.

If someone is 23 and has worked for 10 different companies, I'm gonna guess they're flaky.

However, if someone worked for the same company more than once that's a good sign, because after leaving the company wanted them back.

But, all else being equal, having a degree is better than not for a skilled position, and will usually demand more money.

niucllos ,

It's definitely not a perfect system and you're absolutely right that it significantly favors people with strong support and safety nets, especially those of a financial nature.

That being said it's a very easy shorthand for a company to take and is reliable enough to keep using it, just like how financial institutions in the US use SSNs as private identifiers because it's easier and cheaper than running and supporting their own systems/assessments and mostly works well enough

drosophila , (edited )

The SSN system is one of the more moronic things the US does, which is really saying something.

uis , avatar

College favours the rich, who can afford it and I don't think people with higher education are better at planning their future.

I'll rephrase it to show flaw: Schools favours the rich, who can afford it and I don't think literate people are better at planning their future.

MonkeMischief ,

I've grown rather cynical of corp-speak lately, and I've heard this line before.

Whether said overtly or not, at least nowadays I'd be willing to bet a degree is used as a positive indicator that the candidate is likely in debt, will do anything for a job, and therefore will stick around and put up with almost anything for less wages, because they lack leverage.

They're therefore cheaper to hire than an independent individual that might exercise their freedom to leave if they're not treated with respect.

This might also explain why folks with high level degrees are constantly called "overqualified" and ghosted.

StaticFalconar ,

A factory worker seems like one of those jobs that doesnt require a college degree.

GingeyBook ,

I think in the context of the factory worker, they are talking about high school

lugal ,

I was talking about the origin of general schools in general

jimrob4 , avatar

Considering public education began before the industrial revolution and factories, that seems a little suspect.

lugal ,

Is that the case? I mean schools existed before in different shapes and forms but from what I gathered, it was in the 1800s that it really coughed on

MonkeMischief ,

Ah, Elementary through Highschool teaches you to be an employee.

Higher education is being sold dreams and taking on debt to learn to be a better employee. Sounds about right.

I teach myself new complex skills all the time, but I imagine I'm still written off a ton because I didn't pay for at least the four year license to learn to learn. Lol

(I want to emphasize I'm being playfully sarcastic about our clown world society and not attacking you, you are very correct about needing to understand before one critiques!)

lugal ,

No offense taken. That's about the criticism I had in mind

uis , avatar

Higher education is being sold dreams and taking on debt to learn to be a better employee. Sounds about right.

Don't be worse than Russia. Please fix.

pumpkinseedoil ,

Well that's about the system in the USA or some third world countries. Locking higher education behind a paywall only helps to keep the population uneducated, combine that with no focus on critical thinking in school and you get a population that's easy to control and to polarise.

Of course politicians like Trump (or pseudo-democracies or straight up autocratic regimes in third world countries) really benefit from an easily-convinced population that's not questioning them too much, so, given how strong the republicans currently are, that sadly probably won't change anytime soon.

At some point they'll realise that they need free or at least very affordable education to stay internationally competitive...

MonkeMischief ,

Agreed with every word.

On a national level we're reaping the tainted harvest wrought by years of cultivating an uneducated populace.

They make for great desperate-workers, emotionally swayed voters, readily-motivated armed forces, and well-trained consumers, but making higher education an increasingly lofty privilege while also undermining it at every turn for politics is totally coming back to bite us.

Instead of being seen as the wealth of our nation, people are seen as another commodity product for corporations to buy and sell. (Readily evident at the defunding and disrespect towards arts and social sciences.)

Now when there's a "shortage" of educated workers, they just import them from wherever's cheapest.

...And tons of our college funding still goes to the football teams. To entertain and profit off the uneducated masses.

Well that's about the system in the USA or some third world countries.

And boy, are we feeling it. Infrastructure crumbling. Crime, unemployment, homelessness on the rise. Everybody is stupid. But check out our new super-carrier! /s

Man I wish I had some positive note to end this with but I'm just frustrated, and a lot of me wishes to just escape. Lol.

uis , avatar

The original idea behind school isn't to educate the masses. Why would a factory worker need to know calculus and Shakespeare? He needs to read the clock and timetables, be on time, wake up in the morning early enough to be punctual, ...

In certain country reading clock and timetables was deemed not enough for factory worker.

hungryphrog , avatar

Don't forget blind obendience!

Maggoty ,

Okay but at that point high school has proven that.

avrg ,

The same energy as "entry level job, 10 years of work experience needed".

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